BBQ Redux SEE RECIPE: BBQed Pig Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 From: "Alb Tross" Subject: Re: Barbecue Chicken In The Toaster Oven Mr. Chaisson adjures us: >... give the silly debates about who makes better barbecue a rest. Silly? Silly! You have no idea of the importance of the right understanding about BBQ. The ramifications extend right back to the Creation Story and ribs. And the smoke which rose in a tower behind the Israelites and their enemies? The smoke from preparing BBQ meat! True BBQ is manna from heaven. It has been suggested by imminent theologicans that Israel's status of "chosen" derives from God's preference that we not eat pork...but do the heretic BBQers in the Carolinas remain steadfast? You who would substitute a golden calf for the true barbecue of our forefathers are a scandal to all the faithful. What would the Pope say? Oy Veh! The multiplicity of BBQ sauces is a direct result of the Tower of Babel. Helpfully, John "Thou shalt not BBQ anything that goes on cloven hoof (Deutro-Leviticus 11:22:33)." ________________________________________________________________ From: Ann Markle "At 08:51 PM 12/10/2003, Alb Tross wrote: " pork...but do the heretic BBQers in the Carolinas remain steadfast? You who would substitute a golden calf for the true barbecue of our forefathers are a scandal to all the faithful. What would the Pope say? Oy Veh! The multiplicity of BBQ sauces is a direct result of the Tower of Babel. Now. The majority of the WORLD eats pork BBQ. Is that Orthodox? Or orthodox? (Ahem. Sorry.) I have not eaten BEEF BBQ, but would, and happily (Matt, where are you when we need you????). But Pork is not heretical or Carolinas, but rather Mainline. BEEF is Out There, but not beyond my (Anglican) inclusive consideration. YUM. Weight-Watcher burn-out, but not for long, Ann The Rev. Ann Markle Crossville, Tennessee ________________________________________________________________ From: "Bethany K. Dumas" On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Ann Markle wrote: >Now. The majority of the WORLD eats pork BBQ. Is that Orthodox? Or Cite, please. I don't believe that. Canonical barbecue is a dead cow. Bethany ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ken Peck" "Jesus said, 'Thou shalt not BBQ pork; it is an abomination. Only beef shalt thou BBQ. But in the age to come thou may also roast cabbrito over mesquite coals; it is a sacrament of the kingdom.'" Acts of the Holy Synod of the Most Blessed Apostles, Matthias, clerk, Volume XI, page 2438, paragraph 15. ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld Acts 11 vss 1-9. Dead cow is anathema. Fr. Peck attempts to carry on (carrion?) the schismatic rites of the Muttster, but Christian unity will out. - pax porcina - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl Not merely anathema, but _cruel_ anathema! -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ken Peck" Obviously a late 1st or 2nd century gloss inserted by the Swinemongers Guild. "Jesus said, 'Better to BBQ a dead cow than a live one.'" Acts of the Holy Synod of the Most Blessed Apostles, Matthias, clerk, Volume XI, page 2438, paragraph 16. Jesus also said, "Thou shalt not cook beans in thy chilli; it is an abomination." Acts of the Holy Synod of the Most Blessed Apostles, Matthias, clerk, Volume IX, page 163, paragraph 4. ________________________________________________________________ From: "Carol M. Marsh" Are you real sure about that, Ken? Exodus 12:3-5 reads: "Tell the whole congregation of Israel that on the tenth of this month they are to take a lamb for each family, a lamb for each household. If a household is too small for a whole lamb, it shall join its closest neighbor in obtaining one; the lamb shall be divided in proportion to the number of people who eat of it. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a year-old male; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats." I don't see anything in there about either beef or pork! Cabrito (young goat, for you who are uninitiated) is God's own recommended critter. Exodus 12:8 goes on to say: "They shall eat it roasted over the fire with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted over the fire...." That sure sounds like BBQ to me. :-) Carol -- taking Scripture *very* literally -- Carol M. Marsh Ruidoso, New Mexico USA ________________________________________________________________ From: "Stephen P. Victor" Carol M. Marsh said: Oh, Carol, you and your observance of ceremonial law. Get with it, we haven't done that for centuries! Steve -- Stephen P. Victor San Antonio, Texas USA ________________________________________________________________ From: "Carol M. Marsh" You're from the Republic of Texas, Steve. I just gotta prove that I can proof text as good as any Southern Baptist who grew up doing sword drills. ;-) If lamb from a sheep or a goat is good enough for God, it's good enough for me! I'll admit the passages I quoted are from the NRSV not God's own KJV! Carol -- Carol M. Marsh Ruidoso, New Mexico USA ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > Cite, please. I don't believe that. Canonical barbecue is a dead cow. Ah, the voice of reason, at last. Pax, John ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" Which deity has cloven hoofs besides Pan? The PorkMeister, Lord of the Flies, the Devil himself. And which cloven-hooved dainty is forbidden as unclean? Pigs. We all know the Devil is a pig. If the saying, "You are what you eat" has any meaning in this strange, late world, surely you will make the connection here. Better to wangle an invitation to the wedding feast as the fatted calf than to porcine away in outer darkness. Now, I admit I don't eat pork or beef. Pax, John ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Cite, please. I don't believe that. Canonical barbecue is a dead cow. Or chicken, or lamb, or even the dreded fish. But over all beef does win out, even if only as sausages. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Dead cow is anathema. Dead cow can be as tasty and succulent as dead steer, if treated right for a week or two prior to slaughter. We keep three steer calves each year for the freezer a couple of years down the track, but this is usually supplemented by the occasional cow that has dried out and early in it's career. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Not merely anathema, but _cruel_ anathema! I would agree if it was done carelessly. However, as with our steers, the cows are well fed for a few weeks, then taken to a quiet corner of the yards and shot, It is sudden and involves no brutal manhandling or prior ill treatment. Mind you I think that it is a poor reward for an animal that has worked to provide our milk products in life. Thus I will soon have a *retired* cow gracing my immeadiate home locale. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > That sure sounds like BBQ to me. :-) We would call it spit roast, and yes wild goats are often cooked this way. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Which deity has cloven hoofs besides Pan? And beef on the hoof? Is that not cloven also? Though shalt eat all meats in due season, but bewrae of white meats in the months of summer, for white meat can rot quicker thean red. So says the old proverb, Never eat pork if there is not an *R* in the name of the month. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ken Peck" > Now, I admit I don't eat pork or beef. You eat dead birds? ________________________________________________________________ From: "Scott Knitter" The live ones are difficult to eat. -- Scott Knitter - ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > And beef on the hoof? Is that not cloven also? Look at the pointy things at the end of bovine legs. No cloves. Beef on the hoof? Is that like lumber on the roots? Or seeing patients as "mending baskets"? Might not be useful to transform our vision of living beings this way. Pax, John ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl The Biblical thing is that which cleaveth the hoof _and_ cheweth _not_ the cud, which is unclean to eat. Among major food animals, that's pork. It appears that horsemeat should be kosher, but I've never heard of it. Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ken Peck" Yes, but it chews the cud. Does the Devil chew the cud? Do pigs? ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > > You eat dead birds? > The live ones are difficult to eat. And the feathers impossible to digest. Just ask owls. Pax, John ________________________________________________________________ From: "Stephen P. Victor" What about cats? Ours cleaveth not the hoof (he doesn't have any), but he cheweth not the cud. Well actually, he doth eat grass from time to time. So maybe he's unclean. Tricky question, perhaps one requiring an expert on the Talmud. Not that I have a strong desire to whip up a batch of kitty stew. Steve -- Stephen P. Victor San Antonio, Texas USA ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > Not that I have a strong desire to whip up a batch of kitty stew. Sprinkle kitty stew with kitty litter for that crunchy Bake-O flavor. Even the cats will like it ... although cat cannibalism should not be encouraged as it can lead to feline leukemia. Cattily, John (on the spot) ________________________________________________________________ From: "Stephen P. Victor" > John (on the spot) I just *won't* go there. Steve -- Stephen P. Victor ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl "Both...and" is not logically equivalent to "neither...nor". I recommend Deuteronomy 14, to be found at http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/BIBLE/DEU/DEU14.HTM in NRSV English, for a partial list, with general principles. There is other dietary stuff elsewhere. -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl > > Not that I have a strong desire to whip up a batch of kitty stew. http://recipes.stsams.org/recipes/kittylittercake.html -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: "Stephen P. Victor" > "Both...and" is not logically equivalent to "neither...nor". Once again my "wit" has fallen on deaf ears. I might follow your link to see if cats are listed as either clean or unclean, but I bet I won't find them. Steve -- Stephen P. Victor ________________________________________________________________ From: "Stephen P. Victor" > http://recipes.stsams.org/recipes/kittylittercake.html No. No. I simply refuse to believe my eyes. This is a dream, and I'll wake up soon and find the world is a less horrifying place than I thought. Steve -- Stephen P. Victor ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > > http://recipes.stsams.org/recipes/kittylittercake.html > > No. No. I simply refuse to believe my eyes. This is a dream, and I'll wake > up soon and find the world is a less horrifying place than I thought. Great minds run in the same gutters...or in this case, cat houses. By the way, I hear cats taste like chicken... Pax, John ________________________________________________________________ From: "Carol M. Marsh" Johnny on the spot says cattily, Sprinkle kitty stew with kitty litter for that crunchy Bake-O flavor. Even the cats will like it ... although cat cannibalism should not be encouraged as it can lead to feline leukemia. Then Sibyl provides a url: http://recipes.stsams.org/recipes/kittylittercake.html Yuuuuukkkkkkkkkk! You guys are really over the top this morning -- and the full moon was a couple nights ago! :-) ;-( Carol Carol M. Marsh Ruidoso, New Mexico USA ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl Don't forget to blame Andrew too! He was the one who posted the recipe at Mimi's URL (blame her too, for including it.) Where is Zim when we need him!? On the way from Paris to ROT, that's where... -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ellen Rains Harris" Speaking of Zim, I was wandering aimlessly in the drugstore last night, and came across a bottle of "Zim's Crack Creme." Is that for lubricating his fault? Curiously yours, Mrs Harris ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld Not my fault. Picture's worth a thousand words: http://bertc.com/kitty.htm - pax - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: "Jones, Phil" Ken the Texan posted: "Jesus said, 'Thou shalt not BBQ pork; it is an abomination. Only beef shalt thou BBQ. But in the age to come thou may also roast cabbrito over mesquite coals; it is a sacrament of the kingdom.'" Acts of the Holy Synod of the Most Blessed Apostles, Matthias, clerk, Volume XI, page 2438, paragraph 15. === Balderdash and flummery! This kind of arrant nonsense explains why you can't get any decent BBQ in the state of Texas. And so the BBQ wars continue. Philip D. Jones, Reporting Tsar ________________________________________________________________ From: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Balderdash and flummery! This kind of arrant nonsense explains why you >can't get any decent BBQ in the state of Texas. Phil, I deeply regret that you have been led astray. Bethany ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ellen Rains Harris" Sir, There is barbecue in Texas. There is barbecue in Oklahoma. There is barbecue in Kansas City. There is barbecue in Memphis. There is no barbecue east of the Mississippi. Amen. Alleluia. Mrs Harris ________________________________________________________________ From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Listen to this woman! (But reserve doubt about Memphis.) Bethany ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld Why? She's demonstrated she knows about as much about barbeque as she does about geography.... - pax - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ellen Rains Harris" There is barbecue in Memphis. I am not convinced that it is not cooked in West Memphis, Arkinsaw. I stand by my previous statement. ________________________________________________________________ From: "Barbara D. Colt " > There is no barbecue east of the Mississippi. Hunh??? Barbara D. Colt, ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld You probably also believe that blue crabs are only found in the Chesapeake. Fine - you eat all the dried up burnt cow you want. That'll leave all the moist, smoky ribs and other pig's flesh for us.....who'd ever believe a person that spent half her life outside of Biflo worshiping some rat diety, anyway.... - pax - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ken Peck" From: "Barbara D. Colt " > Hunh??? It comes from Texas. ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ellen Rains Harris" I found the inhabitants of Bithlo to be incredibly helpful when in search of a set of used brake calipers for a 72 Benz. How dare you impugn the fine Bithlonians? I was once riding shotgun in a Bellanca Citabria coming in from the Titusville Intergalactic Airport to Orlando Executive, when the Orlando air traffic facility requested a position report of our captain. He turned to me and asked, "Where the hell should I tell them we are?" I replied (smartly) "You tell them we're over the Bithlo Transmitter Farm." And as I gazed across the Swamp of the St John's, there was nothing but salvage yards and transmitter towers as far as the eye could see. You probably eat at Sonny's. Disgustedly, Mrs Harris, Virginian but I don't eat here. ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld AAAAAAACCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK!!! Get thee behind me, Satan! >You probably eat at Sonny's. NOT fair! (For those of you that don't know of this purported "eating establishment" - this guy's chain of slop-shops ruins more meat in a week than the whole of England during the recent Mad Cow Craziness. He was a state legislator, senator, something, that actually had the nerve to try and declare some day a statewide BBQ holiday.....like those jerks in Tallahassee didn't have something better to do - like getting the elections right or something). Miz Harris has just struck me unfairly. I shall complain to Charles. Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: "Bethany K. Dumas" On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, Ellen Rains Harris wrote: >I stand by my previous statement. Are you certain that you did not go to law school? Bethany ________________________________________________________________ From: "Kate Conant" > There is no barbecue east of the Mississippi. That so-called Texas barbeque and whatever passes for barbeque in Oklahoma and wherever else west of the Mississippi are abominations unto the Lord. North Caroline has the only true barbeque--pulled pork. And no, I did not grow up there, but when I tasted it I was knew that was the real thing. So be it. Praise the Lord! == Kathryn Bailey Conant 438 Mountainside Road Mountain Mission West by God Virginia ________________________________________________________________ From: "Kate Conant" > here is barbecue in Memphis. > There is no barbecue east of the Mississippi. And which Memphis is west of the Mississippi? == Kathryn Bailey Conant ________________________________________________________________ From: "Carol M. Marsh" West Memphis, Arkansas Carol Carol M. Marsh ________________________________________________________________ From: "Kate Conant" > West Memphis, Arkansas Now, you know and I know that you just weren't thinking when you wrote Memphis, but there you go again, Carol! :-) Yes, I've been to West Memphis and I have no more to say about it than Mountain Mission. Kate ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > Listen to this woman! (But reserve doubt about Memphis.) My thoughts exactly. And look at their "Manhattan" clam chowder. Bloody tomato pink. That's just not right. Pax, John ________________________________________________________________ From: "Bethany K. Dumas" >> And which Memphis is west of the Mississippi? Indeed! Bethany ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > And which Memphis is west of the Mississippi? The true Memphis lies in the uttermost west, beyond the shores of the great river. Helpfully, John ________________________________________________________________ From: "Carol M. Marsh" West Memphis is just a few miles down the road from Shell Lake, AR. I had the misfortune of spending the night there once. Thought I'd dropped into a re-run of an old "In the Heat of the Night" which was actually set in Mississipi. "-) Carol ________________________________________________________________ From: "Hal Schulz" > I had the misfortune of spending the night there once. Now if you all are going to talk about Barbeque, you are going to have to listen to _my_ story. My wife is from Tunica, Mississippi, just south of Memphis, and I am here to tell you that those folks in NW Miss. know how to cook barbeque (although my wife was totally bewildered the first time anyone offered her _beef_ barbeque; they only know pig in Miss.). Anyhow, after we were married, I took a job in South Carolina. Not long after we moved there, we were invited to join some friends at the place in town that was supposed to serve the BEST barbeque in the state. Naturally, we went there with great anticipation, looking for a taste from home. To our absolute horror, the concoction that they proposed to call barbeque was YELLOW!!! I guess the sauce was mustard based instead of tomato. We wanted to get out the crucifixes and the holy water and exorcise that abomination, but we were guests, and had to be polite, so we smiled and said, "Er, Yum!" After we got over the shock, we found that it was not terrible, but it still was not real barbeque. We either had to make our own (the real stuff, in secret, of course!), or wait until we went home for visits to get true Southern barbeque. Texas barbeque just doesn't measure up overall, with the exception of the Edwards Plateau area. Those people know how to barbeque goat so fine you'll want to buy a ranch and settle down there just for the food. Hal Schulz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Might not be useful to transform our vision of living beings this way. But the reallity is that herds of steers being raised for meat production are just that. Often refered to a s *beefies*. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > And the feathers impossible to digest. Just ask owls. Now I wonder about that, my cats seem to do a fair job of digesting them. The fur of a rabbit, though seems to be a bit to much, as I find out regularly through the little , and not so little, piles of stomach rejected materioal they leave in convienient p[laces for me. That is convienient for me to put me bare feet in if I'm not looking where I'm treading. But I l;earn fast. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Yuuuuukkkkkkkkkk! You guys are really over the top this morning -- > and the full moon was a couple nights ago! :-) ;-( They don't need a full moon, or anmy moon for that matter. ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > My thoughts exactly. And look at their "Manhattan" clam chowder. Bloody > tomato pink. That's just not right. If it's bloody then it's not tomato pink, if it's tomato pink then it's not bloody. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: trightmy I have so far stayed out of this controversy on the ecumenical principle that it is better not to try to mess with other folks' invincible ignorance, but Sister Kate so clearly speaks the truth that I am moved to applaud her and to offer her when she next makes it through Asheville an opportunity to enjoy one of God's blessings to those of us so blessed as to live in the Old North State. Tom Rightmyer ________________________________________________________________ From: "Bethany K. Dumas" >Texas barbeque just doesn't measure up overall, with the exception of the >Edwards Plateau area. Those people know how to barbeque goat so fine you'll >want to buy a ranch and settle down there just for the food. So you do not yet appreciate the true faith - pity. I shall pray that you grow into it. The finest barbeque I have eaten was in the back of a grocery store in downtown Gonzales - various beef selections + mutton - occasionally other items. Bethany ________________________________________________________________ From: "Scott Knitter" On 13 Dec 2003 at 8:43, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > So you do not yet appreciate the true faith - pity. I shall pray that you > grow into it. I never eat barbecue, because I don't like it, and I'm puzzled by all the strong opinions about it. Definitely YMMV. -- Scott Knitter ________________________________________________________________ From: "Kate Conant" > I have so far stayed out of this controversy on the ecumenical > principle that it is better not to try to mess with other folks' > invincible ignorance, I would be highly honored. Kate ________________________________________________________________ From: "Barbara D. Colt " > My thoughts exactly. And look at their "Manhattan" clam chowder. > Bloody tomato pink. That's just not right. > I have never eaten Manhattan clam chowder. I have no doubt that it may be quite tasty, but to me, Massachusetts born and New Hampshire raised, it's heresy. Barbara D. Colt, ________________________________________________________________ From: "Hal Schulz" From: "Bethany K. Dumas" > The finest barbeque I have eaten was in the back of a grocery store in > downtown Gonzales - various beef selections + mutton - occasionally other > items. Well, out of courtesy and fairness, I shall keep an open mind until I get a chance to sample Gonzales' finest. My experiences with East Texas barbeque have been less than stellar, however. There is a good place in Richardson, though, now that I think of it, although I can't remember the name. Some place on Belt Line, perhaps? Any help from the Dallasites out there? Hal Schulz ________________________________________________________________ From: FlyingFish224 Sistah Miz Harris writes: >I stand by my previous statement. Sit down, hon, and take a load off. Else your feet'll never hold up thru mall madness or the Christmas Eve hoo-hah at that snake-belly place where you and the Hoop hang. Love, Renee the incensed ...and hanging...needle biopsies are fine til the day after. ________________________________________________________________ From: "sally.mullock" > kconant writes: ". . . North Caroline has the only true > barbeque--pulled pork. And no, I did not grow up there, but when I tasted > it I was knew that was the real thing. So be it. Praise the Lord!" I know I shouldn't ask, but what pray is 'pulled pork'? My mind is conjouring up wierd images! SallyM - who never knowingly eats pork since a certain biology lesson at school! ________________________________________________________________ From: "Stephen P. Victor" sally.mullock said: > I know I shouldn't ask, but what pray is 'pulled pork'? My mind is > conjouring up wierd images! Don't even ask about "jerk chicken." Steve ________________________________________________________________ From: "sally.mullock" > Don't even ask about "jerk chicken." I won't These strange terms though do occasionally tax my mind! SallyM ________________________________________________________________ From: "Kate Conant" sally.mullock wrote: > I know I shouldn't ask, but what pray is 'pulled pork'? My mind is > conjouring up wierd images! I quote: "Because this tradition is so old and every region has it's own variations, it's hard to come up with a definition of exactly what pulled pork is. The most basic definition is pork cooked over a low smoky fire to the point where it can be pulled apart by hand." http://bbq.about.com/library/weekly/aa080400a.htm Kate ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ken Peck" It's the opposite of pushed pork. ________________________________________________________________ From: "Carol M. Marsh" How 'bout beef, buffalo or venison jerky? Carol ________________________________________________________________ From: "Stephen P. Victor" Well, those have a similar name, but I was referring to Jamaican cuisine (jerk beef, etc.). ________________________________________________________________ From: Ellen Rains Harris >Are you certain that you did not go to law school? I just hang out with people who did. It rubs off. Mrs Harris, neighbor of judges and such. ________________________________________________________________ From: "sally.mullock" > It's the opposite of pushed pork. Why did I just know that someone would tell me that? SallyM ________________________________________________________________ From: "sally.mullock" From: "Kate Conant" > pork cooked over a low smoky fire to the point where it can be pulled apart by hand." > http://bbq.about.com/library/weekly/aa080400a.htm Hmm, so any meat that is cooked and ready to eat can be termed 'pulled'! Thanks Kate! SallyM ________________________________________________________________ From: Ellen Rains Harris >North Caroline has the only true barbeque--pulled pork. You really should get out more. Mrs Harris, one who truly understands the tao of barbecue, and knows it ain't never been in the Carolinas ________________________________________________________________ From: "Kate Conant" I suppose we'll have to go back to discussing barbequed goat then. Try it in Paphos, Cyprus, with some haloumi and fried potatoes. Mrs Conant, who knows there's no accounting for taste which has become quite obvious on this list ________________________________________________________________ From: "Scott Knitter" On 13 Dec 2003 at 22:24, sally.mullock wrote: > Hmm, so any meat that is cooked and ready to eat can be termed 'pulled'! The term bothers me because it sounds like the meat is pulled off the pig. Ew! Scott ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl Most meat isn't cooked that well done or that tender, though. hamburger, maybe, or pot roast as I do it. Good BBQ pork, the fibers separate from each other at a light touch. Makes it nice for piling on sandwiches, and actually difficult to slice into slices with a knife, which tends to produce "pushed" pork fibers rather than slicing. -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Jeffry P. Barnes Hmm, so any meat that is cooked and ready to eat can be termed 'pulled'! The term bothers me because it sounds like the meat is pulled off the pig. Ew! I think the important distinction is between "pulled pork" and "chopped up pork." True pulled pork is pulled off the (usually) pork shoulder and is of varying lengths and thicknesses, each piece's long side being in the direction of the muscle. Chopped up pork is sort of square little bits of meat, cut up with a knife. Chopped chicken livers are something else entirely. Peace, Jeffry --- The Rev. Jeffry P. Barnes ________________________________________________________________ From: trightmy SEE RECIPE: BBQed Pig Begin with a cooker Hope that helps. Tom Rightmyer ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ Every one gathers round the cooked pig and pulls a bit off. Then they start pulling it off esch other. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > How 'bout beef, buffalo or venison jerky? Much to tough on me wee teeth these days. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: "Jones, Phil" >Phil, I deeply regret that you have been led astray. Hey, I've been to Texas. Texans consider beef brisket and smoked sausage "barbecue." Poor benighted fools! Philip D. Jones, Reporting Tsar ________________________________________________________________ From: "Bethany K. Dumas" > Poor benighted fools! Phil, I have been meaning to talk to you about overgeneralizing! Please pay attention. Bethany ________________________________________________________________ From: "Jones, Phil" >There is no barbecue east of the Mississippi. If you want the best barbecue RIBS go to Kansas City. They do up both beef and pork ribs to die for. If you want the best pit-cooked barbecue BEEF, go to the North Bergen Presbyterian Church, just west of Rochester NY, on the second Saturday in July. Try the beef on 'wick with freshly ground horseradish. If you want the best barbecued CHICKEN, attend any chicken barbecue offered by volunteer firemen in western New York. Any weekend in the spring or fall. There are three places on earth you can get good barbecue PORK: The Hard Rock Café in New York City, Hawaii, at a luau, and in I-85 corridor between High Point and Lexington North Carolina. Kepley's in High Point and Lexington Barbecue in Lexington are sure bets. The barbecue in Greensboro NC, unfortunately, just isn't that good. Memphis barbecue is mediocre and overrated. Texas barbecue is non-existent. Philip D. Jones, Reporting Tsar ________________________________________________________________ From: Juliann Tarsney > Try the beef on 'wick with freshly ground horseradish. What's 'wick? -- Juliann Tarsney ________________________________________________________________ From: "Jones, Phil" In all fairness I have eaten pretty good barbecue pork served in northern Alabama and Mississippi, and in southern Tennessee. They pull the pork and serve it with a very hot sauce. South Carolinians cook barbecue pork well, but then they spoil it, IMHO, with a sweet mustard sauce. The mustard sauce does have its devotees, but I am not one. I've also eaten modest-sized BBQ ribs in Cincinnati that were to die for. Philip D. Jones, Reporting Tsar, BBQ aficianado, with the waist line to ________________________________________________________________ From: "Jones, Phil" > Don't even ask about "jerk chicken." "Jerk" is the Jamaican term for barbecue. Some jerked chicken is pretty good. I have heard the barbecue goat capital of the US is Owensboro, Kentucky. I have never had the pleasure of eating BBQ goat that was cooked by a sober person. I would imagine the Greeks are the hands-down BBQ goat champions. To clarify: With the exception of chicken, BBQ is cooked in a pit. "Pulled" means the meat is pulled off the bone in shreds. In North Carolina the meat is chopped off the bone with a cleaver. The better BBQ joints chop it to order. If you have doubts about a BBQ joint, ask if they serve the BBQ on plates. If the answer is 'No, they just lay out some waxed paper,' then it is a sure bet. There is good BBQ served on plates, but I never encountered bad BBQ served on waxed paper. Philip D. Jones, Reporting Tsar ________________________________________________________________ From: "Jones, Phil" Apologies for stirring up the BBQ wars just when they had quieted down. Philip D. Jones, Reporting Tsar ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld ENOUGH!! Reporting Tsar you may be; culinary expert, you ain't: > "Jerk" is the Jamaican term for barbecue. No more than Kraft is in the US. Good it might be; 'que it ain't. Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: "Jones, Phil" Julianne asked: "What's 'wick?" 'wick is short for 'kummelwick' or 'kimmelwick.' It is a very large, chewy Kaiser roll sprinkled with a few grains of coarse kosher salt, rather that sesame seeds. Without the salt it is just a Kaiser roll. Beef on 'wick with fresh horseradish is Protestant soul food in western New York. It is almost worth putting up with the snow. Philip D. Jones, ________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 Subject: Re: BBQ Redux (Re, Re, Redux) From: Andrew Auld "wick" it ain't. "weck" it is, as in kimmelweck rolls. It's a Kaiser roll baked with rock-salt & caraway seeds on it. Quite good actually, although they don't travel well. - pax - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 From: Juliann Tarsney Subject: Re: BBQ Redux (Re, Re, Redux) > It is almost worth putting up with the snow. Oh, dear, that sounds delicious! -- Juliann Tarsney ________________________________________________________________ From: "Barbara D. Colt " Subject: Re: BBQ Redux (Re, Re, Redux) >It is almost worth putting up with the snow. On the second Saturday in July? Barbara D. Colt, ________________________________________________________________ From: Ann Markle "At 02:46 PM 12/15/2003, Barbara D. Colt wrote: " On the second Saturday in July? KimmelwEck. Yum, with the beef (and a judicious amount of juices) on it. Though I hated the winter every year, I miss Beef on Weck. WITH SALT AND SEEDS, both. All Year Round. I do not like the horseradish, and it is not compulsory. And Lots of Catholics eat it. This beef is not truly barbecue, as it's generally generic roast beef, sans any spices other than garlic. Ann The Rev. Ann Markle Crossville, Tennessee ________________________________________________________________ From: "Scott Knitter" Kümmel is a caraway liqueur...tastes like liquid rye bread. Delicious in small quantities. Best served cold. -- Scott Knitter ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld Never thought I'd say it, either Ann - but me too. Just can't get them down here. The salt won't travel, either - so when someone brings me some, they're just soggy kaisers by the time they get here. Of course, salt and humidity never did mix well. I'm gonna have to bake my own I guess. > I do not like the horseradish, and it is not compulsory. Yes, it is. I was well past 30 years of age before I ended up in western NY and tasted REAL, FRESH, HORSERADISH! - the kind that'll lift your head off and make your sinuses drain faster than a fire hose....yum. I CAN get people to bring me horseradish....there IS a God! - pax - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > What's 'wick? Wick is what they stuff into a piece of fatty meat to get lights for the BBQ. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Poor benighted fools! You know, if there is any subject that will eclipse homosexuallity and politics from this list, it s that of the infamous BBQ. Just look at the flames it engenders! John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > They do up both beef and pork ribs to die for. Which of course both the steer and the pig did, in order for you to have their ribs. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Good it might be; 'que it ain't. Now you have confused me, is BBQ a method of cooking, or the item that has been cooked? John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Apologies for stirring up the BBQ wars just when they had quieted down. Not at all Phil, any change of subject was welcome, thank you. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > On the second Saturday in July? Barbara, have you lost six months, or is that wishfull thinking for the coming of the summer? John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl > is BBQ a method of cooking, or the item that > has been cooked? both and the sauce, too Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl Andrew Auld wrote: > I was well past 30 years of age before I ended up in western NY and tasted REAL, FRESH, HORSERADISH! - the kind that'll lift your head off and make your sinuses drain faster than a fire hose....yum. I CAN get people to bring me horseradish.... there IS a God! Have you grown it? It's one of those things like garlic that might as well be a weed, once it's well started, you can't kill it. If you have cousins with any waste land, or any place like that place in New York State that I seem to remember, that you could set a start in, you'll have it forever after. It's pretty hard to dig it without restarting it, too: new plants grow from pieces of root left in the soil. Only problem is that the tops look like some very common weeds, most of the year until one or the other blooms. You do have to remember where you put the start. The very freshest isn't really incendiary at all--takes some processing to blow your head off. Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld What she said: -- Sibyl Smirl wrote: John NZ wrote: > is BBQ a method of cooking, or the item that has been cooked? both and the sauce, too Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld Good 'que comes from smoke. Flames is "grillin' " - which is differnt. -- John NZ wrote: > You know, if there is any subject that will eclipse > homosexuallity and politics from this list, it s > that of the infamous BBQ. Just look at the flames > it engenders! arcana imperii.... - pax smokum - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld -- Sibyl Smirl wrote: > Have you grown it? No. When I moved to upstate NY, an old dairy farmer showed me what it looked like, and took me up into Hector Land Use Area, where the Gov. took over a bunch of hard-scrabble farms & orchards during the Depression. Showed me how to guess where the gardens had been - once you find the bugger, then just roto-till the area and voila - next spring you have all you want! > The very freshest isn't really incendiary at all > --takes some processing to blow your head off. I was told to grate/crush it and not add the vinegar until your eyes watered. I guess the acetic acid kill the reaction somehow. If you add it too soon, it tastes like that Kraft s**t. - pax - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: pineden > I'm gonna have to bake my own I guess. If you find a recipe, please share! And I'm looking for a recipe for a certain kind of rye rolls, such as those served at Mader's in Milwaukee (is Mader's still there?)...small, sour rye, somewhat hard, sprinkled with coarse salt. I've tried making some with sourdough rye bread dough, but it wasn't the same :-( Jay ________________________________________________________________ From: pineden On 16 Dec 2003 at 9:52, Sibyl Smirl wrote: > The very freshest isn't really incendiary at all--takes some processing to blow your head off. Sounds like the yuccas in my yard, which I've been trying to destroy for about 8 years, ever since we dug up the originals. What's left of the roots is now so far down I can't get to them, possibly in China or NZ. I remember my friend Debby's mother grinding horseradish (chraine) once, with a bandanna over her mouth and nose. On Debby's advice, we left the house for a couple of hours ;-> Jay ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl Hi, Jay, I posted your request to +Glenn's bread-baking List--lots of very smart people about breads there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/betterbread/ Will relay back to Anglican any results that appear. pineden wrote: Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Scott Knitter http://www.maders.com/index.cfm But better... http://www.karlratzsch.com/ ________________________________________________________________ From: Scott Knitter What a waste of time, too, on sticky meat gack that for some reason has been appropriated by otherwise cooking-clueless men (most of them golfers) to build boring lore and rigid rules around. Who cares? ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl BLASPHEMY! Scott Knitter wrote: > > What a waste of time, too, on sticky meat gack that for some > reason has been appropriated by otherwise cooking-clueless > men (most of them golfers) to build boring lore and rigid > rules around. Who cares? -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Scott Knitter Blasphemy about food? How does that work? ________________________________________________________________ From: Scott Knitter First time I had real horseradish, I slathered it on a ham sandwich at my grandmother's house in Milwaukee. Within seconds, I honestly thought I was having a major stroke. I then unslathered the rest of the sandwich. :) Scott Knitter, Chicago USA ________________________________________________________________ From: Juliann Tarsney > I honestly thought I was having a major stroke. It seems you have a lot of traumatic memories connected with grandparents and food. -- Juliann Tarsney ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl So did my husband have a lot of childhood trauma about food. His male relatives seemed to have a strange sense of humor, for one thing, like giving him a spoonful of horseradish and telling him he'd like it, then laughing at his reaction, or apricots and telling him or letting him assume they were peaches. I love apricots, myself, for themselves, but he seemed to react with a lifelong extreme distaste to first childhood experiences, part of it maybe associating with "betrayal", or not being able to trust his family. Then there were the almost accidental things, like living next to an avocado tree in Southern California, and his playmates and himself pelting each other with the rotten fallen fruit. He never ate avocados, either. He had a lot of other food dislikes, with no stories attached. Seemed the only things he really _liked_ to eat were seriously bland. Since cooking for him was the time that I really got the most experience and the most learning in cooking, his dislikes in their turn deformed my own cooking skills, somewhat, though before and after my thirteen years of marriage, I ate enough other things to know what I liked and _wanted_ to cook. Working in restaurants helped, too. -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl > http://www.maders.com/index.cfm I think it's possible that Hummel stuff may be even more redolent garbage than Precious Moments or the old sixties Keene kids! At least you let us know that the restaurant is still there: wish you'd posted both a couple of months ago--FrSam would love them, I suspect. Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Scott Knitter The Hummel cr*p is what I hate about Mader's, and of course Mader's is the popular German restaurant in Milwaukee. I prefer Karl Ratzsch. Scott Knitter, Chicago USA ________________________________________________________________ From: Scott Knitter Food and I had a stormy relationship when I was a child. In other words, lots of foods made me hurl. This became problematic in restaurants. I seem to have developed an iron stomach since then. >It seems you have a lot of traumatic memories connected with grandparents >and food. Scott Knitter, Chicago USA ________________________________________________________________ From: pineden > The Hummel cr*p is what I hate about Mader's, I'm not fond of the Hummel cr*p either. I just like the food. And I was always told that Karl Raatzch's was Austrian. The food there is great, so is the atmosphere, or at least it was when I was there last (more years ago than I care to count, but some of you weren't born yet!) Jay ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ Sibyl Smirl wrote: > both > and the sauce, too But surely the BBQ is the source of the heat which cooks the meat, and the sauce is added to the meat after it is cooked? If I buy a BBQ, I don't anticipate getting the meat to go with it, though they may throw in a cheapo bottle of so called BBQ sauce. Personal;ly I prefer the BBQ that some one, (hi someone) described of a 40 gallon drop cut lengthways in half, with a spit over one half, in the latter there being the hot *coals*. Instead of a spit, for small cuts of meat a metal grill can be laid across the drum and the meat placed on it. Just a poor benighted kiwi, who only sees a BBQ, of varied types, several times a week in summer, but avoids the charred offerings as much as possible. Now a Hangi! YES! John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: Sibyl Smirl No "buts" about it--I thought you were asking what it was that was called "BBQ", and I answered. All three items are called BBQ. Period. Obviously, if you're buying one in a store or a catalog or online, you're buying what you see, what is pictured or described, and would seldom get the other two thrown in--well, the sauce is thrown in with the sandwich. I might say to someone else with no addition, "I bought a barbecue" (might as well spell it out, since the three-letter abbreviation doesn't reproduce the sound of speech) and mean a sandwich of the meat with sauce, if I were talking about going to the fair or beautiful downtown Crestline, and they'd understand. If I were talking about going to the supermarket, I'd say "I bought barbecue" (no article), and they'd probably understand that I meant the bottled sauce, in context, though they might believe, knowing my particular grocery store in Columbus, that I bought some cooked meat, no sauce, since there is sometimes a smoker on the parking lot, or a sandwich from their deli department. I might mean that I went to the Wal-Mart in Joplin and bought a commercial smoker (my dad made our own years ago, out of one of those 55-gallon drums someone described, to use with charcoal rather than wood, and a frame stand that he welded out of metal pipe). Someone else might build one of brick or stone, or dig a pit. In the case of any of the three, I would probably specify which, since I have never been known to be consistently a woman of few words, and the lack of distinction is obvious. Just to add to your problem, "a BBQ" is _also_ the party or social event at which the end product is on offer as the food, and at which the actual cooking of the meat is done, in the appliance, or in a hole in the ground. In that case, you couldn't "buy" one, though you might pay for the expenses of the party or "give" one, but the "buy" usage would be kind of strained. In the first scene of "Gone With the Wind", which may possibly have penetrated your part of the world, Scarlett O'Hara is attending a barbecue. I suggest you not worry your poor wee head over American Mysteries. -- Love in Christ, Sibyl Smirl ________________________________________________________________ From: Andrew Auld Burnt offerings are NOT 'que. > Just a poor benighted kiwi, who only sees a BBQ, > of varied types,several times a week in summer, > but avoids the charred offerings as much as possible. - pax - Andrew H. Auld ________________________________________________________________ From: trightmy "A barbeque" in North Carolina usually means a meal where barbeque (defined as pork cooked in the heat and smoke from the coals) is served. In restaurants one can get a barbeque sandwich meaning barbeque served usually with coleslaw on a four inch bun also used for hamburgers. One can also get a barbeque tray - about half again as much barbeque as found in the sandwich served with hush puppies - or a barbeque plate, half again as much barbeque served with both hush puppies and cole slaw - or a barbeque dinner which is about as much barbeque as served on the plate and served with hush puppies, cole slaw, and two vegetables, frequently pinto beans or green beans cooked with fat back or deep fried okra. The covered grill on which one cooks barbeque is sometimes called a grill if small or a cooker if large. Tom Rightmyer ________________________________________________________________ From: "Alb Tross" > Food and I had a stormy relationship when I was a child. Probably a food allergy you grew out of. Pax, John ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Just to add to your problem, "a BBQ" is _also_ the party or social event All points taken, and digested. It does seem thatonce again we come up aginst the international usage line, where how we use words depends on our cultural backgrounds. I don't know about today, but holding a BBQ in your garden, or on the beach, or any where else, was almost unheard of in the UK thirty years ago, so I arrived in a coultry where, in summer BBQ and bring a plate, are some of the most common words used, and was quite mystified, though quickly enlightened. But like the Church, the basics are the same, world wide, it's the local interpretation that varies. And inquiring minds do want to know. How else would we learn the reallities of each others culcha. John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz, ________________________________________________________________ From: John NZ > Burnt offerings are NOT 'que. Depends on the view of the cook, or his/her skill John (in Faith, Hope, and Love. ) nz ________________________________________________________________ From: "Allan Carr" A friend of mine who participates in barbeque cookoffs many weekends a year might add that it can't be barbeque if it wasn't cooked for hours and didn't take a group of at least four people to do the cooking (usually all night before the judging). At a restaurant, he'd probably say ribs weren't barbeque unless they'd been cooked 4 or 5 hours (thus excluding Tony Roma's but including Corky's in Memphis). California barbeque actually isn't about barbequed tofu but is claimed to be Kansas City style. California cookoffs follow Kansas City Barbecue Society rules. Lots of stuff on regional barbeque styles at http://www.cbbqa.com/visitors/StylesOfQ.html and links. They claim that "Eastern North Carolina features a whole hog, cooked in the heat and smoke directly over a wood fire and served with a thin vinegar-based sauce. In western North Carolina, pork shoulder and ribs are cooked in the heat and smoke directly over of a wood fire and served with a thin tomato-vinegar sauce." Disagree? --- Allan ________________________________________________________________ From: "Ken Peck" Around here the word "barbeque" can mean (a) beef properly roasted over mesquite coals. (b) roasting beef properly over mesquite coals. (c) a fiesta at which such barbeque is eaten. (d) an eating establishment were such is served. (e) among suburban cowboys the thingee they use to simulate barbeque. You have to know the context as to which is meant. The stuff some folks pour over improperly barbequed stuff is called barbeque sauce.