BBQ Wars - The June 2002 battle SEE RECIPE: Barbequed Cabrito Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 To: StBedes@list.via-caritas.org From: "Tony Hitsman" Subject: Re: List Management Oh, Lordy, how much longer is this useless debate going to go on? Let's get down to the essentials; our faith, good brew, and bbq. boom boom ------------------------------ From: Sherri Butler Subject: Barbecue was Re: List Management >Let's get down to the essentials; our faith, good brew, and bbq. I'll bite. My co-worker did a "man on the street" type poll for the paper today, asking that vital question: gas grill vs. charcoal. The answers split 50-50. Worse, one person called everything he does on the grill "barbecuing". Is this a Northern trait? < vbg > Sherri ------------------------------ From: "Tony Hitsman" > Is this a Northern trait? Possibly. < sigh > boom boom, living where bbq is basically Kraft bbq sauce slathered on and grilled ------------------------------ From: "Charles T. Smith, Jr." > boom boom, living where bbq is basically Kraft bbq sauce slathered on and grilled Somewhere in the ROT, Matt's spinning in his grave. One of the things I regret most was never having a chance to share a brewski and BBQ with Matt. ------------------------------ From: Sherri Butler Tony Hitsman wrote: > boom boom, living where bbq is basically Kraft bbq sauce slathered on and grilled Oh dear. Come south, Tony - start in Texas and head for the Carolinas. You could add a barbecue tour to your cathedral tours, couldn't you? Sherri ------------------------------ From: trightmy As I understand it, barbeque is meat slow cooked over coals. The most authentic barbeque is pork, but as folks from North Carolina moved west to Tennessee, etc. and then to Texas, and points west they used whatever meat was available. As I noted previously, I had some very good tender smoked beef with the late Matt Tracy at a barbeque place across the tracks from his church in Dallas. There are variations on barbeque in many cultures, and as many varieties of sauce as there are spiritual gifts. St. Paul begins at the end of I Corinthians 12 to give a receipt for authentic eastern North Carolina vinegar and pepper barbeque sauce, but over the centuires that receipt has been spiritualized into a hymn reflecting his love for the sauce. In the original it reads "now abide these three: mustard based, tomato based, and vinegar based, but the greatest of these is vinegar based." Over the years the authentic verbal and alimentary tradition has been transmuted so that in parts of the world where true pork barbeque cannot be had - particularly in the land where at breakfast instead of the grits first served in the garden of Eden one is served fried potatoes congealed in a mixture of grease and the sweat of Adam's brow - the noun has become a verb loosely applied to any meat cooked over coals natural wood, charcoal, or rock heated by gas. Meat cooked over coals is a reminder of the goodness of the Lord and God's creation, and is to be appreciated, particularly by women who are tired of having to apply heat to food too many times for too many days. Tom Rightmyer ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Cole" Certainly is here in the tasteless tundras of MN. These folk even eat that chemically altered other white meat from Iowa and call it pork as if it's good enough for BBQ or barbecuing.. when they aren't trying to call beef or lutefisk BBQ... Very hard to get anything like acorn fed BBQ pork from NC. These folks even call roasting veggies on a grill barbecuing! A few have the decency to just call it grilling. Grills are everywhere here.. really a big interest - some even grill in midwinter! You probably wouldn't like their lutefisk-based sauces, though :-) Chuck ------------------------------ From: Sherri Butler > >You probably wouldn't like their lutefisk-based sauces, though :-) Errr..... Pass. ;-) I'm sure Minnesota has many redeeming foods, but I don't think I'll come there for barbecue! Sherri ------------------------------ From: "Jeffry P. Barnes" > Is this a Northern trait? < vbg > Probably. Up where I live "barbecue" is 1) a cooking implement (either charcoal or gas) 2) hamburger mixed with Kraft's barbecue sauce, or some other such stuff and served on a bun -- i.e., what I used to call "sloppy joe's", but apparently that's not a good restaurant term, so when they serve it, they call it "barbecue." 3) if you are lucky shredded beef with barbecue sauce mixed in, occasionally beef or pork short ribs lathered with sauce. 4) what you call it when the "man of the house" cooks. If you go to a city you will find a few barbecue restaurants serving mostly ribs with sauce; again if you are lucky the ribs will be actually smoked, though in the big chain restaurants I'm pretty sure they arrive precooked and wrapped in plastic (just like the stuff you can buy at Sam's Club). All is not lost, however. All C-stores must carry at least seven brands of beef jerky, and there are still small butcher shops which make it out of actual pieces of meat, not the pressed and formed stuff passed off as jerky in the rest of the country. And you can buy both a special knife and board plus all sorts of spice mixtures for flavoring it at any supermarket. And a truly good wake or funeral meal will have "bapa" a traditional Lakota soup made of beef jerky, parched corn, potatoes and wild turnips. In the olden days, it would have been dried buffalo and the potatoes would have been omitted. Also, you get good steak. Not those fancy cuts with Eastern names like "New York Strip" or "Filet Mignon" but good basic sirloin. Real beef flavor, and quite tender. A small steak is 8 ounces. At the local restaurant, the steak sandwich is a pound of boneless sirloin. Just avoid the so-called "baked" potato wrapped in aluminum foil, so it will steam not bake. Peace, Jeffry Cheyenne River Episcopal Mission ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Cole" > Errr..... Pass. ;-) I'm sure Minnesota has many redeeming > foods, but I don't think I'll come there for barbecue! The only quasi-indigenous restaurant food I know of that is noteworthy is liver. Good "steak" restaurants here serve the finest liver one can get anywhere, and it's well prepared. I don't think the better quality of meat comes from here, however. Basic ingredients grown here are really top notch, but the predisposition to use no seasoning and to cook things to death makes results found at "common local places" pretty blah. A big increase in tourism since Mall of America (Le Gran Mal) opened has driven a big improvement in food, but it's mostly ethnic places and chains: little or nothing local. Garlic grown here and mostly in nearby Western Wisconsin is far better that any available from Gilroy, etc. There's a guy near Gillian who grows about 127 varieties of garlic as a novelty and sells them through his farm market. We get good corn and plenty of it, but they can't grow the very good Silver Queen variety common in several areas on the East Coast. Food is more a survival issue than a pleasure for many miles around here. One can get by quite well, and private meals are often really great, but the current push for haut cuisine is an uphill battle all the way, and more like nouvelle cuisine at its peak of mediocrity or banality. Most ethnic restaurants find they must modify traditional dishes and flavors in order to satisfy their average buying customer who has no taste and no tolerance for even traditional spicing. My comment about lutefisk sauces was in jest - I think :-) Chuck ------------------------------ From: "Jeffry P. Barnes" > Most ethnic restaurants find they must modify traditional dishes and flavors > in order to satisfy their average buying customer who has no taste and no > tolerance for even traditional spicing. Modifying spices happens everywhere, I think. After all, a restaurant is a business whose owners are trying to make a living, not be "authentic." And in some cases (such as Italian food) the process of modification has gone on long enough that you have a new cuisine, all its own, a combination of the country of origin and the American experience. When I'm in the Twin Cities, we tend to eat at old favorites -- Emily's Lebanese Delicatessan, Vescio's in Dinkytown (been eating there since 1958, some of the waitresses have been there thirty years and remember us when we were young and thin), Taste of Thailand (which my daughter likes) etc., etc. I can't afford the haute cuisine places like Goodfellow's. Besides, since my eldest daughter keeps kosher, we need to find places where she can eat vegetarian. Interestingly, one of the most innovative restaurants I've ever found is in Pierre, SD, population 12,000 -- La Minestra. Interesting dishes (pork tenderloins in a black mission fig sauce), some of the classic Italian pasta dishes you don't find most places, all hand cooked and prepared. Only flaw is he doesn't make his own pasta. Peace, Jeffry ------------------------------ From: "Tony Hitsman" > Oh dear. Come south, Tony - start in Texas and head for the Carolinas. > You could add a barbecue tour to your cathedral tours, couldn't you? I had some nice bbq in Virginia at a listmeet there a few years ago. While I have the negatives somewhere, maybe someone has scanned this to their computer? Many years ago I had bbq and margaritas in Florida, but after that many margaritas, who can remember the bbq? boom boom, who _loves_ bbq, most varieties of it, so long as his arteries don't rebel too much ------------------------------ From: "Chuck Cole" > . . . . Vescio's in Dinkytown (been eating there since 1958 . . . . Much of the fare at Vescio's is a more bland version of Southern Italian than is typical in Chicago and points East where I come from. I enjoy a few things at Vescio's and miss their branch that was in Burnsville near me. Cossetta's is one of my favorites, as is DeGidio's, for "simple" Italian dining. Both of those have catered to the Italian community of St Paul for at least 80 years so have some immunity to "majority tastes". Carmelo's present reincarnation is very good indeed! Cam Ranh Bay Vietnamese restaurants in Burnsville and Eden Prairie are among my most favorites anywhere, but they did need to modify their fare for the local palate. I like several Thai places, but have never heard of Taste of Thailand when I went searching for a restaurant that uses the Thai version of a jalapeno that is ubiquitous in Thai restaurants around Orlando. I was very fond of Parker House, a traditional steak/supper club in Mendota, but it became Axel's River Grill when bridge construction cut them off from most customers for a year or so. Axel's is good, but Parker House would have been a top recommendation as a local "must do" restaurant in the Twin Cities. There are now several East Indian restaurants (type: actual ethnicity may vary) in the area and they have excellent vegetarian options. I especially like the Tandoor behind Southtown in Bloomington. I could go on a long time on this topic: I eat out often so finding neat places has long been an active interest of mine. :-) --- Chuck Cole My doctor told me to stop having intimate dinners for four. Unless there are three other people. - Orson Welles ------------------------------ From: "Tony Hitsman" > One of the things I regret most was never having a chance to share > a brewski and BBQ with Matt. Yes, Charles, you and I both. I regret that when I was in Dallas/Forth Worth I didn't have an opportunity to call around and get a listmeet together last year. Tony, wondering if they have bbq in New Mexico (...how's that for a lead-in, Carol?) ------------------------------ From: "Carol M. Marsh" In New Mexico, Tony, we do *gormet* BBQ of an eclectic assortment of critters: pork (of course with vinegar marinade), beef brisket, chicken, elk, venison, cabrito (that's goat), lamb or mutton. We had a huge party last Sunday evening where we served BBQ brisket and I made my famous green chili potato casserole. Carol -- Carol Marsh Ruidoso, New Mexico, USA ------------------------------ From: Sherri Butler > Modifying spices happens everywhere, I think. The majority of folks in south Georgia are not experimenters - so Mexican or Chinese food is a bad idea here. Barbecue places are usually the best option if you don't like everything cooked to mush. Church suppers usually provide the best meals. ;-) Jeffry, in another post you mentioned this: >And a truly good wake or funeral meal will have "bapa" a traditional Lakota soup made of beef jerky, parched corn, potatoes and wild turnips. In the olden days, it would have been dried buffalo and the potatoes would have been omitted. This sounds good. I'm trying to imagine what flavor parched corn must have. And C-store is a term I'm unfamiliar with. Sherri ------------------------------ From: "Gary D. Gooch" > As I understand it, barbeque is meat slow cooked over coals. Why, shucks, Tom! If you really insist on pork, come on down to Texas and shoot yourself a feral pig. Not only do we have it, but it's yours for the taking < g >. Pork ribs are pretty common. You can even get BBQ sausage or cabrito (that's goat, for those of you who may not know). And of course different cooking methods are preferred for different meats; here's part of a recent article on barbequed cabrito: RECIPE IS POSTED: barbequed cabrito.txt "For more than twenty years, the central Texas town of Brady has staged the World Championship Barbeque Goat Cook-off on Labor Day weekend. Cabrito is a delicacy that has its ardent admirers--and many detractors. To those who have failed to see the merit in a crunchy yet tender piece of goat meat, the blame must be placed squarely on the way it's been cooked and on the fact that the goat you got probably wasn't a ten-to-eighteen-pound, suckling kid slaughtered at thirty to forty days of age. Older goat is often passed off as cabrito, but once they start browsing on grass, goats develop an unmistakable mutton flavor. They are also tough. The best time to get real cabrito is May through October. After October, you should be skeptical. Cooking your own cabrito can be real simple--if you want to dig a hole in your backyard, as purists insist. All you need is a three-foot-deep pit with a mesquite or oak fire raging in it. Wrap a skinned cabrito in a gunnysack bound with wire and set the meat in the pit. Cover it with dirt to seal in the heat and let it cook all day. The cabrito will be smoke-seasoned and tender by nightfall." But that good lean beef brisket . . . cooked over indirect heat in mesquite smoke at 270F for 18 hours . . . now, that's Barbeque. Don't need none o' that so-called BBQ sauce to mess up the flavor, neither, whether "mustard based, tomato based, [or] vinegar based". Gary+ ------------------------------ From: trightmy My experience with the good smoked beef I had with Matt Tracy at the barbeque place across the street from his church was that a little bit of tomato-based sauce enhanced the flavor. And a small quantity of vinegar and red pepper sauce improves eastern NC pork barbeque. But tastes vary. Tom Rightmyer ------------------------------ From: Ann Markle > The most authentic barbeque is pork, Aw, Tom, this is positively lyrical -- very romantic! Who would have guessed how much you cared? Yum. Ann ------------------------------ From: trightmy Thank you. I was trying to lift our minds and hearts a few inches above our frequent obsession and deal with issues on which the Scripture provides uncontroversial teaching - see Peter's vision on the Joppa rooftop. Tom Rightmyer ------------------------------ From: Sibyl Smirl > Aw, Tom, this is positively lyrical -- very romantic! Who would have > guessed how much you cared? Yum. This reminds me that I have to go down the street this evening for supper. Friday is their day for shortribs, pork, and pork produced in this county by one of my daughter's co-4H graduates at that (Kenna was a 4H teen at the time that Tinker was a 4H junior). I'm not sure it would entirely meet Tom's approval, though. They're slow-smoked on wood coals, but it's ordinary Kansas City bottled commercial sauce, tomato based, I guess. One could use a different sauce, though, if one brought one's own, or wanted to use ketchup, mustard, Worcestershire, or A-1, which I don't. ;^) Which reminds me that the big-deal "Secret Sauce" (not bbq--for hamburgers and such) at a place where I once worked was a 50/50 mixture of ketchup and mustard! ---------------------------------