SEE RECIPE: Fabio's Spaghetti and Meatballs SEE RECIPE: Tomato Gravy with...........whatever SEE RECIPE: Sicilia Family Pasta Sauce.txt SEE RECIPE: Norwegian Meatballs SEE LINK: Links Posted in Various Threads Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 To: StBedes@list.via-caritas.org From: MaryRobin Subject: Re: Off to the U (longish) Speaking of popcorn poppers being used by college students, Dan wrote: <> Well, I used mine several times to cook the "family spaghetti sauce" -- commonly known in my family as "The l8 Hour Sauce." That is how long it has to cook! When I finally retired my popcorn popper, it was exhausted!!!! Keep the faith, Mary Sicilia Puddle City, OR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 To: StBedes@list.via-caritas.org From: "Stephen C. Secaur" Subject: 18 hour sauce Mary Sicilia refers to 18 hour spaghetti sauce in one of her recent posts. When I was an insurance agent in St. Paul (MN), I had a debit collection every month at the home of an older (maybe late 60's) Italian woman. She was always cooking and I kept asking her for her sauce recipe. She finally relented and gave it to me when it seemed I was really serious about it. I'm in the process of cooking up a batch now for our J2A kids and parents this Sunday evening. Here is the recipe, and I'd like to hear how it varies from yours, Mary. Of course, anyone else is welcome to kibitz. SEE RECIPE: Fabio's Spaghetti and Meatballs MMMM. Fabio, Italian cook ------------------------------ From: "Stephen C. Secaur" By the way, NO SUGAR. Whoever said sugar belongs in spaghetti sauce anyway? Grumble, grumble, it SHOULD be tart, they are tomatoes, darn it. Fabio ------------------------------ From: "sally.mullock" > By the way, NO SUGAR. Whoever said sugar belongs in spaghetti sauce anyway? Sticking my head above the parapet, Fabio, I thought that tomatoes are fruit and we all know that fruit needs sweetening < g > ducking again Love SallyM ------------------------------ From: "Paul J. Chiasson" >Sticking my head above the parapet, Fabio, I thought that tomatoes are fruit >and we all know that fruit needs sweetening Sally, to a certain extent, the sweetness of the tomato--and it varies from one variety to another--will come out in the simmering process. At least that's what I've found as I work with my own tomatoes. Plum tomatoes are a sweet variety for example, and you don't need extraneous ingredients added simply to placate an overly pampered palate. Sugar often kills or subdues the natural flavour in any case, and it often overpowers every other ingredient. In tomato sauces especially, you want spices to give the sauce depth. Basil, parsley, rosemary (but only a touch), or oregano should be recognizable to the educated taste bud. Sugar will just mutilate that experience. At least, for what it's worth, that's my experience. Paul J. Chiasson ------------------------------ From: Breen Mullins > Mary Sicilia refers to 18 hour spaghetti sauce . . . . When we last talked about "red gravy" I dug up a link on The Atlantic's website. Corby Kummer is an excellent food writer, IMO. Here he is on red sauce: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/99jun/9906redsauce.htm SEE LINK: Links Posted in Various Threads Yum. (Kummer doesn't use sugar, either.) Breen -- Breen Mullins San Mateo, Calif. ------------------------------ From: "sally.mullock" > Sally, to a certain extent, the sweetness of the tomato . . . . Hi Paul, Yes, I understand what you are saying, but I do find with certain vedge/fruit, especially if you are using the skins too, you need a touch of sugar to bring out the flavour! I always use it for example with courgettes. Love SallyM - heading towards me bed!! ------------------------------ From: Simon Kershaw > . . . . I always use it for example with courgettes. Fancy spoiling courgettes with sugar (he says in disbelief)! simon who might occasionally 'sweeten' strawberries -- with balsamic vinegar ... mmmmmmm -- Simon Kershaw Cambridge, England ------------------------------ From: "SMD" Here's a sweetening tip that also cuts the acid. I add a jar or two of babyfood carrots &/or squash to my sauce. It was an idea born out of desparation- neither kid would eat any orange vitamin A type veggies, so I tried hiding them in spaghetti sauce. Surprisingly, it's good! Sue (who's kids still aren't big veggie eaters- does spinach dip count?) ------------------------------ From: "Jon A. Egger" His Archcheeseheadedness asks: > By the way, NO SUGAR. Whoever said sugar belongs in spaghetti sauce anyway? My Grandma, who was a Giuliani...and she was Italian enough for me! brudder jon WestMo ------------------------------ From: "B. D. Colt" > simon who might occasionally 'sweeten' strawberries -- with balsamic vinegar ... If you had to put up with the strawberries we get in the usual supermarket, you'd use some sugar. Like most fruits in our markets, they're picked much too soon, and even at the height of the season they're really sour. Barbara D. Colt, St John the Evangelist, San Francisco ------------------------------ From: "B. D. Colt" > . . . .I thought that tomatoes are fruit and we all know that fruit needs > sweetening < g > Like all natural products, tomatoes vary, but heat seems either to increase sourness or decrease sweetness. I say, taste and see; if it needs sugar, don't be a purist--add it, but not too much, just enough to take the edge off. ------------------------------ From: "Raewynne J. Whiteley" It's all a matter of taste...I neither use sweeteners nor salt when I'm cooking any fresh fruit or vegetables - I enjoy the variety in flavor you get that way. It's always a little of a shock when I visit my mother and have salted veges again. And I don't sweeten cream either - changes the flavor too much. Raewynne (but I *love* candy, and having just gone totally off dairy, am enjoying the relative sweetness of soy milk) ~~~~~ Raewynne J. Whiteley Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ From: Scott Knitter >It's always a little of a shock when I visit my mother and >have salted veges again. Nothing like a fresh, ripe, salted tomato, though. Hold tomato in one hand, salt shaker in another. Alternate saltings and bites. Wear bib. Delicious and refreshing! Big glass of filtered cold water, too. I don't do this often (once a year, tops). Love it, though. When I'm being neat about it, I quarter the tomato. Wow. Scott Robert Knitter, East Lansing, Michigan USA ------------------------------ From: "Jeffry P. Barnes" > Grumble, grumble, it SHOULD be tart, they are tomatoes, darn it. Oh, quit grumbling, Fabio. Spaghetti sauce should taste the way the eater likes it. I like to eat the sauce they serve at Vescio's in Dinkytown, at the U of M. I've liked it since 1959, when I first ate there. That's my standard. So there. I also like the fact that when we go there, sometimes there is a waitress who has been working there for 35 years and remembers us from when we brought our child in during the sixties. I got to tell you, nothing impresses a five year old granddaughter like having the waitress tell her that her hair isn't as red as her mother's was when she was three. Peace, Jeffry -- The Rev. Jeffry P. Barnes Cheyenne River Episcopal Mission, Eagle Butte, SD 57625 ------------------------------ From: Carol Marsh >Fancy spoiling courgettes with sugar (he says in disbelief)! OK. So what are courgettes? That's a Britishism I've not encountered before. Carol (who prefers salt to sugar) ------------------------------ From: Carol Marsh > . . . . the sweetness of the tomato--and it varies from one variety to another . . . The acidity or alkalinity of the soil and water in which tomatoes (and other fruits/vegetables with high water content) are grown affects their sweetness and taste characteristics. Regardless of variety, 'hothouse' tomatoes will never taste as rich as those grown in black loam soil and allowed to field ripen. Carol, thinking how good a central Illinois "Big Boy" tomato tastes on a BLT. Drool, drool. ------------------------------ From: "B. D. Colt" > OK. So what are courgettes? Zucchini. Barbara D. Colt, St John the Evangelist, San Francisco ------------------------------ From: MaryRobin << . . . . tomatoes are fruit and we all know that fruit needs sweetening < g > >> No, see, this is the REASON why you cook the sauce for 12-l8 hours!!!!! It breaks the tomatoes down and releases the sugar naturally. Keep the faith, Mary Sicilia Puddle City, OR ------------------------------ From: MaryRobin << I like to eat the sauce they serve at Vescio's in Dinkytown . . . .>> Me, too! It bore almost no resemblance to the family sauce -- well, it WAS red -- but the meatballs were GREAT and the place was, well, memorable! I liked Sammy Dee's, too, but more for Mama Dee's mother wit and wiseacre comments than the food! Keep the faith, Mary Sicilia Puddle City, OR -- where there are NO Southern Italian restaurants -- just VERY foo foo NORTHERN Italian restaurants that sell duck sausage and polenta for $25 a plate. Where have you gone Mama Dee????? ------------------------------ From: "Glenn E. Hammett" > By the way, NO SUGAR. When I cook spaghetti sauce I cook by taste. Some of the newer tomato varieties have so little sugar and acid that you wouldn't want to can them by the hot water bath method. The last batch of Roma tomatoes I bought had almost no flavor and were very low in sweetness. In those cases I would add a little sugar. Some vegetables are always better when cooked with a little sugar...carrots, beets, sweet potatoes, some dried beans come to mind. So if I think it needs it I'll add the sugar, but not too much. BTW, the last batch of spaghetti sauce I made had no sugar added and it was too sweet until I fixed it with some other ingredients. +Glenn ------------------------------ From: "Jeffry P. Barnes" > . . . .but more for Mama Dee's mother wit and wiseacre comments than the food! I liked Mama Dee until she got famous -- then the price went up and the proportions went down. I took a bishop there once. When he ordered her famous antipasto, Mama Dee could be heard yelling to the cook. "Put lots of meat on his." (There was a notable difference in his and our salads). Also, I began to notice how she treated the staff. Let's just say, there were NO waitresses working on their thirty year pin at Sammy Dee's. Peace, Jeffry ------------------------------ From: "Andrew H. Auld" > My Grandma, who was a Giuliani...and she was Italian enough for me! And mine...tho she was Muskogee Creek... Actually, it depens on the tomatoes for me; the store-bought canned variety, except for Centro all seem very acidic. Thus the sugar (brown or raw). While we're on the subject, last year, I posted the following Creole/Cracker traditional late winter/spring dish (that's when fresh tomatoes come in along the Gulf Coast... Unlike Italian-type sauce, and gumbos, this is cooked a very short time...the fresh tomatoes are the taste one's looking forl....an Italian girl I once dated accused me of "chunky sauce" but that's a different recipe.. SEE RECIPE: Tomato Gravy with...........whatever - pax - Andrew H. Auld; adrift between FL and NY ------------------------------ From: MaryRobin Fabio asks for comparisons. Warning:EVERY Italian family of my acquaintance has its own sauce and EVERY family believes that it's sauce is the best. My family's, of course, IS the best! ;>) Fabio's sauce: << Start with a pound or so of pork spare ribs, and some Italian sausage. Brown the meat in a big sauce pan with garlic, olive oil and onions, and some oregano and basil and bay leaves. After the meat is browned, drain the fat off and add multiple cans of crushed tomatoes, one can of tomato paste and some water ( use judgment as to how much water). Also add more seasonings as needed. >> SEE RECIPE: Sicilia family sauce.txt Sicilia family sauce: spare ribs, yes; also beef stew meat and pepperoni, no Italian sausage. Multiple cans of crushed tomatoes (NEVER tomato puree, always tomatoes in juice) and one can of tomato paste - yes; no water -- you fill the tomato paste can with red wine (some kind of Dago Red - usually chianti). Also one cup of sliced mushrooms, 6 cloves of garlic chopped, l onion (chopped), and l green pepper (diced). Saute all of this together and add to the sauce. And one small can of chopped black olives. Spices: cilantro, salt, black pepper, a little crushed red pepper, basil, oregano (my grandfather always pronounced it Ore-ee-GON -oh), a little fennel seed or anise (a little goes a long way!) and one or two bay leaves. << Then cook hard, bring sauce to a boil, stirring constantly to avoid burning, and then turn down to simmer for about half a day. Then, cool and put in fridge until next day.>> ABSOLUTELY!!!! Simmer AT LEAST 4 hours on Day One. But we make and add the meatballs right before putting the sauce in the fridge -- that way they marinade overnight along with everything else. <> YEP -- simmer at LEAST 6 hours on Day Two. (It is called l8 hour sauce because, ideally, you make it one evening after supper, simmer it for 4 hours or so, let it rest in the fridge overnight, and then bring it back out to simmer the next morning for 6 hours and serve it for Sunday afternoon dinner! At least that was how it was ALWAYS done in my house of origin. And then we lived off of it, having pasta (which we called macaroni not matter what shape it was!) as a side dish the rest the week. Except for when we add them, we use the same ingredients for the meatballs -- except that we put the same spices in the meatballs as we do in the sauce (except red pepper) -- as well as a little garlic salt. And browning them in the oven is right ---- that way they get uniformly done and they STAY meatball shaped -- even when they have cooked for six hours! My Aunt Mary, blessed of memory, generally used the famous "meatball" meat combination: 1/3 ground sirloin, 1/3 ground pork, 1/3 ground veal. I think it made the best meatballs --- but I haven't been able to find that combination in YEARS -- even in real butcher shops. Indeed!!!! Keep the faith, Mary Sicilia Making herself VERY hungry in Puddle City, OR ------------------------------ From: Mimi Bennett-Aronson >My Aunt Mary, blessed of memory, generally used the famous "meatball" meat >combination: 1/3 ground sirloin, 1/3 ground pork, 1/3 ground veal. I >think it made the best meatballs --- but I haven't been able to find that >combination in YEARS -- even in real butcher shops. I'll stay out of the red sauce argument (not genetically qualified being Norsk), however the original family recipe for Norwegian Meatballs used the same meat combination: 1/3 ground sirloin, 1/3 ground pork, 1/3 ground veal. I've found that I can substitute ground turkey for the veal quite successfully. Much easier to come by and cheaper than veal. SEE RECIPE: Norwegian Meatballs ------------------------------ From: "Andrew H. Auld" Hey! Squash that! > >OK. So what are courgettes? > Zucchini. No veggies allowed in a fruit thread. Zucchini, indeed! Someone should have their mouth washed out with soap.... - pax - Andrew H. Auld; Food Cop ------------------------------ From: Molly Wolf >Zucchini, indeed! Someone should have their mouth washed out with soap.... 'Joo hear about the New Yawker who went to visit friends in New Hampshire and found, to his astonishment, that they left their car unlocked when they parked it on the village green. "Don't you ever lock your car?" he asked. "Nope," his friend responded, "except for a few weeks in late August and early September. Leave a car unlocked then, and you're likely to come back and find it full of zucchini." Molly who grows really successful weeds, when there's enough rain, which there still isn't. ------------------------------ From: MaryRobin Subject: Re: 18 hour sauce - a meatball addendum Opps - Looking at my family sauce recipe from last night's post -- I notice I forgot one very important thing about the meatballs. I always add 1/2 chopped onion and 1/2 chopped green pepper to the meatball mix in addition to the bread crumbs, cheese, spices, egg and milk. Makes them VERY tasty! MY favorite breakfast in the WORLD is cold meatballs the morning after the sauce was served the night before. YUM!!!!! Keep the faith, Mary Sicilia Puddle City, OR ------------------------------ From: "Stephen C. Secaur" Mary, thanks for the great recipe ideas. I never thought of adding cilantro because it is such a spicy herb, but I will give it a shot the next time I make sauce. Also, how could I have forgotten to add red wine? DOH!! You are right, of course. Fabio